Would Bob have approved?

Extraborg · Post by **Extraborg** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:58 am

First of all, let me say I like the Little Phatty very much. I enjoy playing it and think, with one reservation, that it sounds terrific.

I am, however, disappointed by the digital noise in the high notes on my Stage Edition. It seems a pity that an analog synth from Moog should suffer from what sounds very much like digital aliasing.

Does anyone know if anything is being done to rectify this? Is it a hardware or software problem? Will my Little Phatty always suffer from the digital noise or is a fix in the pipeline?

For me, the noise takes the lustre off what is otherwise a beautiful instrument.

I wonder sometimes, when playing the LP, what Bob Moog would have thought about the problem with the sound, and what he would have done about it?

goldphinga · Post by **goldphinga** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 am

Are you sure youve got a stage? the only digitial noise i heard about was on the tribute and there is a fix for this.

Extraborg · Post by **Extraborg** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:31 am

Yes, I'm positive I have a Stage LP (the rubberised cheeks are a giveaway). And so far as I know, there is no fix for the noise as yet. It's a fault known to the guys at Moog (see email from Amos below).

"We're working on that aspect. It is in fact a tiny bit of high-frequency
interference occurring on the analogue board, an all-analog problem that
has the ironic characteristic of sounding like digital aliasing! I will
ask our head engineer Cyril Lance what is the current outlook on
eliminating this interference. Thanks very much for writing in to keep
us informed."

goldphinga · Post by **goldphinga** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:00 pm

so this is stage edition specific noise?

Extraborg · Post by **Extraborg** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:22 pm

I'm not sure. I'm assuming it was the same digital noise referred to occuring in the Tribute Edition. There is definitely some kind of bleed through noise on the Stage Edition. It can be heard most on quiet patches in the higher registers, which is a pity as the noise muddies the delicate sounds the LP is capable of.

LilFatty · Post by **LilFatty** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:15 pm

Well, i recently got myself a new Stage edition after spending sometime with a Tribute unit, and being less happy with the noise floor.

The Tribute version had this backgorund interference leaking through on the output, which was present in most patches, including bass tones.

Since using the Stage LP, the noise floor has been improved to a decent satisfaction. I cannot hear the interference on my unit (on headphones or main out) in the same obvious way i could hear it on the Tribute.

If i take a dark bass patch, and then crank up the main volume and use the 'overload' to max and have the cutoff fully down - i can hear the interference or the background noise more clearly. I assume this is the way it is though.

sergiovalente9 · Post by **sergiovalente9** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:36 pm

Extraborg wrote:Yes, I'm positive I have a Stage LP (the rubberised cheeks are a giveaway). And so far as I know, there is no fix for the noise as yet. It's a fault known to the guys at Moog (see email from Amos below).

"We're working on that aspect. It is in fact a tiny bit of high-frequency
interference occurring on the analogue board, an all-analog problem that
has the ironic characteristic of sounding like digital aliasing! I will
ask our head engineer Cyril Lance what is the current outlook on
eliminating this interference. Thanks very much for writing in to keep
us informed."

When I open all the way the filter cut off, its sounds so bright. I used to think that the filter cut off is so open. But you only listen it if you play a note in a high octave (C7 or so).
I´m so happy with my LP SE. I can play very fat basses and some good leads. But with tiny and high freq sounds, its seems to be a little metallic. I asume (is my first analog synth) that it is a "characteristic" of the SE.
They want to fix it? Woooow. I love the free OS updates from Moog Music.

Tangsonghe · Post by **Tangsonghe** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:55 am

Hi Extraborg,

I got my LP Stage a few weeks ago and also noticed the noise. It turned up quite regularly when playing high pitched notes. Experimenting a bit I found that as Amos said, it is not digital noise, as I was able to remove it by messing around with the oscillator levels and waveshapes a little, its onset not being gradual but suddenly kicking in. Try turning the oscillators down a bit.

I have built a few oscillators and filters myself and have found that its hard to get them to work well at both high and low audio frequencies, hearing similar noises at high frequencies. My homemade TB303 clone often sometimes decides to distort its high notes. It can be due to all sorts of things. I hope there's a way of fixing it on the LP.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:54 pm

Thanks for opening this thread, Extraborg.

I think we should face the facts: The interferences are there and they sound rather unpleasant. They make the highs of the LP sound edgy. No analog synth that I heard, be it VCO- or DCO-based, ever produced such strange artifacts.

I'm sure this is still the same issue that Sound-on-Sound reported in their original review of the Little Phatty TE:

Having done that, the only remaining difference I could discern when comparing the sawtooth and square waveforms was a faint impurity (which sounded like a hint of frequency modulation) in the LP’s higher notes. We’re talking tiny traces here — to all intents and purposes the two synths sound the same, but audiophiles will be able to hear this small discrepancy.

This leads me to the question: Isn't a 1300 $ monophonic synthesizer per definition an audiophile product? Also, this guy was referring to the raw oscillators. Extensive modulations, FM and hard sync make things worse. In my humble opinion it is very annoying that this issue, which has been known for long enough now, has not been rectified until today. This is something totally unacceptable for a premium product such as a Moog synthesizer.

It is true what Tangsonghe says, you can influence the severety of the effect in small amounts by dampening the OSC levels. But even then, it is still very noticeable.

So my message to Moog Music has to be the following: Please seriously look into this issue and determine a way to provide your paying customers with a fix ASAP. If it is not patchable in software, offer a replacement oscillator board for 29 $ max. for shipping and handling.

Thanks for your attention,

kybernaut_01

LilFatty · Post by **LilFatty** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:10 pm

I'm sure the problem is not as bad as some make out

.

Moog would have stopped production had it been such an obvious fault. And, many other magazine reviews of the LP seem to be highly favourable, and i am talking about reviews of the Tribute model (which has a higher noise ratio over the Stage).

Maybe i'm not lookiing deep enough for this problem, but i do tend to play the lower range on my LP. Mainly bass leads, etc.

If this turns out to be a hardware fault, Moog should provide a 'free' upgrade to any additional components that need to be replaced, along with clear instructions, etc. I don't agree that we should pay, especially if the unit is still under warranty. Or replace our units

Lets see.

sergiovalente9 · Post by **sergiovalente9** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:15 pm

kybernaut_01 wrote:Thanks for opening this thread, Extraborg.

This leads me to the question: Isn't a 1300 $ monophonic synthesizer per definition an audiophile product? Also, this guy was referring to the raw oscillators. Extensive modulations, FM and hard sync make things worse. In my humble opinion it is very annoying that this issue, which has been known for long enough now, has not been rectified until today. This is something totally unacceptable for a premium product such as a Moog synthesizer.

kybernaut_01

For me Little Phatty was a dream came true. I can´t afford a Vogayer for the price. And the Phatty sound so well on the bass, so deep, so warm, so analog. I used to play with a Arturia demo, and its sounds good but not great as the phatty do.
And for the price, Phatty is all right for an analog synth (compare the price not with a digital Roland or Korg, compare it with the new Arturia hardware synth or with a Clavia or an Access Virus). They are much more expensive. And in countries like Argentina (where i live) Moog has a great commercial politic.
An about the free updates/fixes, I think they´re great. Its gives the TE more stability and less digital noise. I read in this forum about a new arpegiator with a future OS update. So I will have more functions that for I really pay

sine · Post by **sine** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:54 am

As one who's interested in buying an LP, my question is how obvious the interference noise is. I realize it's subjective, but I'm looking for some perspective.

I've tried the LP several times now and never heard the problem, but it's been in noisy music stores. And frankly I don't think I played anything in the 2' range, let alone using the upper Octave(s) switch. I can hear ok, but I certainly don't have golden ears--closer to tin. But I'll bring some earbuds with me next time I go to Sam Ash and see if I can hear it for myself. Any particular settings that cause it?

Also, if someone would be interested in posting a recording that would help. Maybe a .wav file, as I get the impression the noise in question is on the subtle side.

Extraborg · Post by **Extraborg** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:12 am

To Sine: the sound is noticeable in the delicate patches towards the highter end of the scale. Playing through a PA you wouldn't notice it with all the ohter noise going one. Recording a lead line you probably wouldn't notice it in a mix although you would if the sound was soloed. As I said in my original post, the LP sounds great but it's just a pity that it has this problem. Without it, it would sound fantastic.

To LilFatty. No, it isn't a make-or-break problem I agree. It's just a disappointment when you want to produce a pure tone and can't.

To Kybernaut_01. Mostly, I simply think it is a pity that a keyboard that is capable of such rounded, solid sounds should have audible interference in the background that, ironically, sounds like VA-style aliasing. I don't know if it can be fixed. If it can, I hope Moog will offer a solution to LP owners that want it. Not everyone is that bothered about it. It's just that I prefer the delicate sounds the LP is capable of to the brash ones and this is when the interference is most audible.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:38 pm

LilFatty wrote:I'm sure the problem is not as bad as some make out

Erveryone's perception is different

Personally, I noticed the interferences from the first day I got my LP!

It sure depends on the type of analog sounds you play. If you like (and use) the LP overload circuit a lot, you probably won't care for such small details.

I for one like very pure and "vintage" type of analog sounds. For those, the interferences destroy a lot of what the sound could be without it.

It must be said though, that the high registers of the LP do generally sound rather unpleasent, IMO. There is often some agressive/fast oscillator beating hearable, also I would describe the overall sound as "pinced" and "harsh". But I'm only talking about the highs here. I'm not sure if this all goes onto the account of the interference issue or if there are other factors contributing to these effects.

After all it seems to be a hardware design glitch on the whole series. I even checked with another LP produced several months after mine: Identical sound.

If you want, you can eaysily check this for yourself by playing some factory presets and transpose them with the "Octave" button. (check preset #03, #04, #14, #47, etc.)

On preset #39 you can make even a really strange obervation: When setting to the highest octave range and playing notes higher than the highest "G", the whole sound suddenly collapses and plays in different pitch! Seems that the frequency of the interferences interfere with the modulations of the sound itself

Very strange, and indeed reminding very much of the effects of aliasing in the digital world.

Since not all LP users seem to worry too much, I would still say that it would be OK to pay a modest amount of money for a replacement hardware component. I hope though, that the LP is not layed out on a single PCB board....

cheers,
kybernaut_01

Tangsonghe · Post by **Tangsonghe** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:10 am

I also noticed the distortions quite soon after I got the synth
out of the box. I usually give notes played in high registers a bit of
space in the mix. Doing that I can hear the distortion easily and
it spoils things.

Was a bit dissappointed as none of my VAs can do high notes
very well either so I was expecting Moog to get the bit real analogue
can do well right on what is otherwise a cracking little synth.

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Would Bob have approved?

Would Bob have approved?

So bright??